Posts by Eugene Shubert

44

Only Two Religions

by barry in

i know i may get shot down in flames for this but here goes anyway.

im quoting fron dr des fords site http://www.desford.org.au/home/index.php/mission.

there are and always have been only two religions in the world.

I believe that the connection to the original post is my reply to Barry on page 1 (19-Nov-03 13:20). There were so many responses siding with the first demon's message that I had to counter with the first angel's message:

"Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and the springs of water." (Revelation 14:6-7).

That led to a direct confrontation between the Bible's end-time affirmation of the Creator God and the opposing philosophy that prefers demonic deception.

Eugene Shubert

44

Only Two Religions

by barry in

i know i may get shot down in flames for this but here goes anyway.

im quoting fron dr des fords site http://www.desford.org.au/home/index.php/mission.

there are and always have been only two religions in the world.

Eugene Shubert

Eugene, are you trying to use "true science" to support the bible?

Absolutely not! I'm using the Bible to support "true science."

Is there any "true science" that you don't use?

Define "true science."

You know what I'm talking about, yes the "E" word, do you try to assimilate evolution and creation?

My professional training has been in mathematics and physics. I believe in special creation. BTW, I recall reading a book by Professor Stephen Hawking where he says that the big bang "smacks of divine intervention."

Also, I'm wondering how you use the scientific method to prove God exists?

I don't worry about proving that God exists. I ask you to explain quantum mechanics without God.

The point I'm making is that it's not right to use the term "true science" and equate beliefs with scientific theory.

I'm always saying that to relativists. I do make fun of physicists for being too religious.

Either something is scientifically true or it is a belief. For example, you will never be able to use science to prove that the bible is inspired of god.

That's nothing. Kurt Godel proved, mathematically, in his famous incompleteness theorem that there are an infinite number of statements about arithmetic that are true yet unprovable.

How would you state the hypothesis?

"Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.
But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit." 1 Corinthians 2:9-10.

I'm not agreeing with Oracroth on his statement, but your statements are just as absurd.

Just as absurd as quantum theory? Richard P. Feynman (1965 Nobel Laureate in Physics for fundamental work in quantum electrodynamics) once said, "I think it is safe to say that no one understands quantum mechanics. Do not keep saying to yourself, if you can possibly avoid it, 'But how can it possibly be like that?' because you will go down the drain into a blind alley from which nobody has yet escaped. Nobody knows how it can be like that."

Eugene Shubert

44

Only Two Religions

by barry in

i know i may get shot down in flames for this but here goes anyway.

im quoting fron dr des fords site http://www.desford.org.au/home/index.php/mission.

there are and always have been only two religions in the world.

Eugene Shubert

Eugene, read this quote: "To be sure, the doctrine of a personal God interfering with natural events could never be refuted, in the real sense, by science, for this doctrine can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific knowledge has not yet been able to set foot."

The point is quantum theory refutes determinism and vindicates the clear revelation of Scripture.

Einstein Scientific knowledge still hasn't set foot in your "obvious interpretation of Biblical revelation."

As I've said, all respected physicists today agree that Einstein was being extremely closed-minded in his refusal to accept quantum physics.

Also, Stephen Hawking argued that there is 'no place for a creator', that God does not exist.

Where's his proof? He doesn't have one! He is being religious. I agree that physics has 'no place for a creator' if we exclude God from science with a definition. But isn't that approach to inquiry childish and simplistic?

In his quantum cosmology "there would be no singularities at which the laws of science broke down and no edge of space-time at which one would have to appeal to God or some new law to set the boundary conditions for space-time . . . The universe would be completely self-contained and not affected by anything outside itself. It would neither be created nor destroyed. It would just BE

Well sure. All pantheists believe that.

. . . What place, then, for a creator?"

A purely probabilistic equation for things that happen is no explanation of why things happen. My point is that you already believe in miracles. Do the math. Realize that the existence of the universe isn't any more impossible in modern physics than for the Red Sea to split apart precisely when Moses lifts up his staff and stretches his hand over the water. We're just debating alternative axiom sets. The Bible says that there is order and meaning to the universe. Modern physics teaches that everything is just a purposeless coincidence.

Again, you're juxtaposing scientific language with belief, again, argument invalid. By saying that "All respected physicists today agree that Einstein was being extremely closed-minded and, if using his philosophical language, overwhelmingly agree that God plays dice with light and matter", you're misleading people into thinking essentially that, "all respected physicists...overwhelmingly agree that god plays dice with light and matter" or that god exists.

I'm not misleading anyone. I've made it explicitly clear what I believe in terms of the popular non-literal language in use by physicists. Don't be angry with me because I'm speaking with greater precision. I said, God not only plays dice with the universe, ?He cheats.

Eugene Shubert

44

Only Two Religions

by barry in

i know i may get shot down in flames for this but here goes anyway.

im quoting fron dr des fords site http://www.desford.org.au/home/index.php/mission.

there are and always have been only two religions in the world.

Eugene Shubert

I'd like to read more on this quantum theory. I really hate the concept that the state of anything at a certain point can be exactly the same given the same origins. Then I can get out of this perpetual depressive state.

Oracroth,

Professor Stephen Hawking has a nice lecture online where he discusses the not too ancient deterministic view of physics and modern quantum theory. See

Does God Play Dice?

Note especially this statement by Hawking:

So God does play dice with the universe. All the evidence points to him being an inveterate gambler, who throws the dice on every possible occasion.

Hawking isn't saying that he believes in God. He is only building on Albert Einstein famous objection to quantum physics: "Gott wurfelt nicht!" (God does not play dice!) All respected physicists today agree that Einstein was being extremely closed-minded and, if using his philosophical language, overwhelmingly agree that God plays dice with light and matter. The only insight that I'm adding to the debate is based on an obvious interpretation of Biblical revelation. I like to summarize it by saying, God not only plays dice with the universe, ?He cheats.

Eugene Shubert

44

Only Two Religions

by barry in

i know i may get shot down in flames for this but here goes anyway.

im quoting fron dr des fords site http://www.desford.org.au/home/index.php/mission.

there are and always have been only two religions in the world.

Eugene Shubert

The laws of the universe dictate that there is no random action or energy. Anything that happens can be precalculated if you knew the formula that governs that object.

Oracroth,

You don't know a thing about the known laws of the universe. Did you know that quantum theory validates the Biblical view of physics?

Lesson 1. Please consider this perspective: God is continually working through His creation and His laws, using them as His instruments.

"Whatever the LORD pleases He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deep places. He causes the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth; He makes lightning for the rain; He brings the wind out of His treasuries." Psalm 135:6-7.

"He spreads the snow like wool and scatters the frost like ashes." Psalm 147:16.

The Lord is constantly employed and using as His servants the things that He has made. Said Christ: "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." John 5:17.

The universe can't even exist apart from God.

"He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." Colossians 1:17.

"In Him we live and move and have our being." Acts 17:28.

The fundamental fact of quantum theory is that nature appears probabilistic on the atomic scale. This is true science: It isn't any more unlikely for the Red Sea to split, water molecules suddenly moving out of the way precisely when Moses lifts up his staff and stretches his hand over the sea, than existence itself.

Eugene Shubert

44

Only Two Religions

by barry in

i know i may get shot down in flames for this but here goes anyway.

im quoting fron dr des fords site http://www.desford.org.au/home/index.php/mission.

there are and always have been only two religions in the world.

Eugene Shubert

Gday Barry,

Technically, I'm not an SDA. My theology is an offense to the church. I compare Adventism with first century Judaism. To the degree that the Jewish church rejected Christ, the Adventist church accepts antichrist. I think of Desmond Ford as a type of John the Baptist who prepared the way for A. Graham Maxwell.

44

Only Two Religions

by barry in

i know i may get shot down in flames for this but here goes anyway.

im quoting fron dr des fords site http://www.desford.org.au/home/index.php/mission.

there are and always have been only two religions in the world.

Eugene Shubert

Barry,

It's true that Adventism is composed of Pharisees and Sadducees. However, according to the book of Revelation, the two great religions at the end time that oppose each other (as we see on this forum) is the great hostility and contention between the 3 demons' messages and the 3 angels' messages:

http://www.everythingimportant.org/gospel

44

Only Two Religions

by barry in

i know i may get shot down in flames for this but here goes anyway.

im quoting fron dr des fords site http://www.desford.org.au/home/index.php/mission.

there are and always have been only two religions in the world.

Eugene Shubert

The clearest refutation of Desmond Ford's theology is given in an outstanding book by John MacArthur called, The Gospel According To Jesus. In short, Jesus said, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me" (Luke 9:23). To follow Jesus truthfully requires honesty, a willful renunciation of self and self-interests and a genuine submission to Christ's lordship.

13

Are Jehovah's Witnesses an Offshoot of the SDA?

by Eugene Shubert in

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it seems that many people believe that jehovah's witnesses are an offshoot of the seventh-day adventist church.

i've read many claims of this and wonder what the actual relationship is, if any.

Eugene Shubert

Thanks everyone for clearing that up for me and for all those exceptional details.

13

Are Jehovah's Witnesses an Offshoot of the SDA?

by Eugene Shubert in

.

it seems that many people believe that jehovah's witnesses are an offshoot of the seventh-day adventist church.

i've read many claims of this and wonder what the actual relationship is, if any.

Eugene Shubert

It seems that many people believe that Jehovah's Witnesses are an offshoot of the Seventh-day Adventist church. I've read many claims of this and wonder what the actual relationship is, if any.